Comments on: 4 decades of doing it wrong? http://www.polimom.com/2007/02/24/4-decades-of-doing-it-wrong/ I used to be in the middle, but they keep moving the line! Sun, 20 Jul 2008 20:38:27 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.5 by: Polimom Says » Narcissists R Us http://www.polimom.com/2007/02/24/4-decades-of-doing-it-wrong/#comment-58059 Tue, 27 Feb 2007 16:27:14 +0000 http://www.polimom.com/2007/02/24/4-decades-of-doing-it-wrong/#comment-58059 [...] Prior related post here. [...] […] Prior related post here. […]

]]> by: Polimom http://www.polimom.com/2007/02/24/4-decades-of-doing-it-wrong/#comment-57927 Mon, 26 Feb 2007 21:14:42 +0000 http://www.polimom.com/2007/02/24/4-decades-of-doing-it-wrong/#comment-57927 For some reason, trackbacks aren't working reliably at the moment. CLG has pinged with an excellent post of her own, <a href="http://clg1994.blogspot.com/2007/02/more-on-self-esteem.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>. For some reason, trackbacks aren’t working reliably at the moment.

CLG has pinged with an excellent post of her own, here.

]]> by: CLG http://www.polimom.com/2007/02/24/4-decades-of-doing-it-wrong/#comment-57909 Mon, 26 Feb 2007 17:04:41 +0000 http://www.polimom.com/2007/02/24/4-decades-of-doing-it-wrong/#comment-57909 I swear, I posted my issues with my daughter before I started blog-browsing. What I did not state in my post is that we are, on the advice of her teachers, pushing our daughter to fail. Why would we do that to a third grader? Because she needs to learn to work hard. She is Gifted/Talented, and in a very demanding program to cultivate her talents. I don't micromanage her regular school homework. If she doesn't feel like she needs to study her multiplication, I let her get the 35 on the test. How embarassing is that for a GT kid to fail a test that the rest of the class got A's on? After a couple of those, she's learning that she needs to study. With sports, we put her in the demanding, three-practice-a-week league, rather than the no-need-to-win church league all her friends are in. As I posted, she has suddenly realized she does need to practice. That hard work is worth the effort. I guess this probably comes across as Super-Competitive-Mom, but I don't think there is anything wrong with working hard to win. Like we tell our kids, we don't care if you actually DO win, but whether you are in school or on the field, you had better be working hard. Don't bring home a 35 because you didn't study. Bring home a 35 because you challenged yourself, worked hard, and STILL got a 35. I swear, I posted my issues with my daughter before I started blog-browsing. What I did not state in my post is that we are, on the advice of her teachers, pushing our daughter to fail.

Why would we do that to a third grader? Because she needs to learn to work hard. She is Gifted/Talented, and in a very demanding program to cultivate her talents. I don’t micromanage her regular school homework. If she doesn’t feel like she needs to study her multiplication, I let her get the 35 on the test. How embarassing is that for a GT kid to fail a test that the rest of the class got A’s on? After a couple of those, she’s learning that she needs to study.

With sports, we put her in the demanding, three-practice-a-week league, rather than the no-need-to-win church league all her friends are in. As I posted, she has suddenly realized she does need to practice. That hard work is worth the effort.

I guess this probably comes across as Super-Competitive-Mom, but I don’t think there is anything wrong with working hard to win. Like we tell our kids, we don’t care if you actually DO win, but whether you are in school or on the field, you had better be working hard. Don’t bring home a 35 because you didn’t study. Bring home a 35 because you challenged yourself, worked hard, and STILL got a 35.

]]> by: Jack http://www.polimom.com/2007/02/24/4-decades-of-doing-it-wrong/#comment-57836 Sun, 25 Feb 2007 22:14:27 +0000 http://www.polimom.com/2007/02/24/4-decades-of-doing-it-wrong/#comment-57836 Breaking through that "everything's easy for the smart kids" wall is a hard one. But I think the harder wall to hit is when you realize that there are people smarter than you. Not that you ever go through school thinking you are number one, but you do picture yourself in the top tier. At some point you take a college prep class where for that particular group, you are just average. Of course at that point you still make awesome grades. But then in college it really hits you, and I think that is a different mindset to get used to. As far as the issue of society giving praise, or that which you can't control as parents, it is an issue of comparison. Teachers deal with so many students who don't come to school, don't pay attention in class, don't do the work, turn the work in late, etc. They are just so happy to have students who simply follow instruction and complete the assignment on time. So if on top of that you actually get all the right answers and maybe even show some insight on an essay, then it is hard not to throw out some praise there even though for that particular student there wasn't super effort involved. The "safe zone" happens when there ceases to be a perceived incentive or advantage to being at top performance. The line of thought is, if everyone knows I can do this, what am I proving by getting a 100 on this instead of an 88? I'll get more free time to go play if I just stop working on this homework now, and I'll still pass the assignment. It is not easy to picture at this stage of school that cutting things off may catch up to you in a later course. Breaking through that “everything’s easy for the smart kids” wall is a hard one. But I think the harder wall to hit is when you realize that there are people smarter than you. Not that you ever go through school thinking you are number one, but you do picture yourself in the top tier. At some point you take a college prep class where for that particular group, you are just average. Of course at that point you still make awesome grades. But then in college it really hits you, and I think that is a different mindset to get used to.

As far as the issue of society giving praise, or that which you can’t control as parents, it is an issue of comparison. Teachers deal with so many students who don’t come to school, don’t pay attention in class, don’t do the work, turn the work in late, etc. They are just so happy to have students who simply follow instruction and complete the assignment on time. So if on top of that you actually get all the right answers and maybe even show some insight on an essay, then it is hard not to throw out some praise there even though for that particular student there wasn’t super effort involved.

The “safe zone” happens when there ceases to be a perceived incentive or advantage to being at top performance. The line of thought is, if everyone knows I can do this, what am I proving by getting a 100 on this instead of an 88? I’ll get more free time to go play if I just stop working on this homework now, and I’ll still pass the assignment. It is not easy to picture at this stage of school that cutting things off may catch up to you in a later course.

]]> by: Polimom http://www.polimom.com/2007/02/24/4-decades-of-doing-it-wrong/#comment-57831 Sun, 25 Feb 2007 20:07:12 +0000 http://www.polimom.com/2007/02/24/4-decades-of-doing-it-wrong/#comment-57831 Hmmm..... Marc, reading your post from the pingback above, I have to assume that in spite of your kind statement that I write well, I may have blown it on this one. Maybe a better way to describe it would be a fear of failure, or of a child's worries about looking "less" than the successful/smart image they feel they have to maintain. Jack said, "A gifted child knows they are smart just by going to public schools. The kids know in class who to get the right answers, who passes the ‘’hard'’ tests, and who doesn’t need to study that much." And certainly that's true; I don't think there's any way a child who's academically gifted wouldn't know that -- and that's not the problem. It's when the child begins to stay in the "safe" zone to maintain the label, or worse, doubts themselves when hit with a failure because they've internalized a message that everything's easy for smart kids, that I think problems arise. Hmmm….. Marc, reading your post from the pingback above, I have to assume that in spite of your kind statement that I write well, I may have blown it on this one.

Maybe a better way to describe it would be a fear of failure, or of a child’s worries about looking “less” than the successful/smart image they feel they have to maintain.

Jack said, “A gifted child knows they are smart just by going to public schools. The kids know in class who to get the right answers, who passes the ‘’hard’’ tests, and who doesn’t need to study that much.”

And certainly that’s true; I don’t think there’s any way a child who’s academically gifted wouldn’t know that — and that’s not the problem.

It’s when the child begins to stay in the “safe” zone to maintain the label, or worse, doubts themselves when hit with a failure because they’ve internalized a message that everything’s easy for smart kids, that I think problems arise.

]]> by: Black Shards, In Your Eyes, Blinding » Self Esteem: the Gift that Stunts Growth http://www.polimom.com/2007/02/24/4-decades-of-doing-it-wrong/#comment-57830 Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:53:45 +0000 http://www.polimom.com/2007/02/24/4-decades-of-doing-it-wrong/#comment-57830 [...] Polimom says that she’s worried about her daughter and whether she’s been given too much self-esteem.  She says: It’s not just the parents, and it’s not just schools or academics, either. If your kid has ever been on a non-scholastic youth sports team (out here in Katy, soccer comes to mind…), you’ll recognize this: Since the 1969 publication of The Psychology of Self-Esteem, in which Nathaniel Branden opined that self-esteem was the single most important facet of a person, the belief that one must do whatever he can to achieve positive self-esteem has become a movement with broad societal effects. Anything potentially damaging to kids’ self-esteem was axed. Competitions were frowned upon. Soccer coaches stopped counting goals and handed out trophies to everyone. Teachers threw out their red pencils. Criticism was replaced with ubiquitous, even undeserved, praise. [...] […] Polimom says that she’s worried about her daughter and whether she’s been given too much self-esteem.  She says: It’s not just the parents, and it’s not just schools or academics, either. If your kid has ever been on a non-scholastic youth sports team (out here in Katy, soccer comes to mind…), you’ll recognize this: Since the 1969 publication of The Psychology of Self-Esteem, in which Nathaniel Branden opined that self-esteem was the single most important facet of a person, the belief that one must do whatever he can to achieve positive self-esteem has become a movement with broad societal effects. Anything potentially damaging to kids’ self-esteem was axed. Competitions were frowned upon. Soccer coaches stopped counting goals and handed out trophies to everyone. Teachers threw out their red pencils. Criticism was replaced with ubiquitous, even undeserved, praise. […]

]]> by: Ed T. http://www.polimom.com/2007/02/24/4-decades-of-doing-it-wrong/#comment-57808 Sun, 25 Feb 2007 13:56:05 +0000 http://www.polimom.com/2007/02/24/4-decades-of-doing-it-wrong/#comment-57808 BTW, on a slightly humorous note - my mother told me that, when she succumbed to this particular temptation and brought home a less-than-stellar report card, her father signed his first name to it, then handed it back to her. When she asked him why, his response was "Well, you did half the work, so I signed half my name." Needless to say, the next report card she brought home looked quite different. ~EdT. BTW, on a slightly humorous note - my mother told me that, when she succumbed to this particular temptation and brought home a less-than-stellar report card, her father signed his first name to it, then handed it back to her. When she asked him why, his response was “Well, you did half the work, so I signed half my name.”

Needless to say, the next report card she brought home looked quite different.

~EdT.

]]> by: Ed T. http://www.polimom.com/2007/02/24/4-decades-of-doing-it-wrong/#comment-57807 Sun, 25 Feb 2007 13:53:03 +0000 http://www.polimom.com/2007/02/24/4-decades-of-doing-it-wrong/#comment-57807 Well, while I can understand the problems with the "everybody is a winner" paradigm (especially the devaluation of actual performance), I have seen this type of reaction/behavior before. In fact, I suffered from it, as did others I knew (including my mother.) For some reason, at a particular point in growing up, a child seems to feel that "being a brain isn't cool", or (possibly more importantly) that "showing off" one's talents isn't the way to fit in and be part of the crowd, and they succumb to peer pressure and under-perform. I don't know if this is hormone-driven, or if it is more of a sociological / psychological thing, but AC's generation certainly isn't the first one to experience it. You might also consider that AC may be "testing the limits", something that is a part of growing up, and how do you respond - do you stand fast, and insist that she perform to the level she is capable of, or do you accept something less? ~EdT. Well, while I can understand the problems with the “everybody is a winner” paradigm (especially the devaluation of actual performance), I have seen this type of reaction/behavior before. In fact, I suffered from it, as did others I knew (including my mother.) For some reason, at a particular point in growing up, a child seems to feel that “being a brain isn’t cool”, or (possibly more importantly) that “showing off” one’s talents isn’t the way to fit in and be part of the crowd, and they succumb to peer pressure and under-perform. I don’t know if this is hormone-driven, or if it is more of a sociological / psychological thing, but AC’s generation certainly isn’t the first one to experience it.

You might also consider that AC may be “testing the limits”, something that is a part of growing up, and how do you respond - do you stand fast, and insist that she perform to the level she is capable of, or do you accept something less?

~EdT.

]]> by: Polimom http://www.polimom.com/2007/02/24/4-decades-of-doing-it-wrong/#comment-57771 Sun, 25 Feb 2007 03:11:36 +0000 http://www.polimom.com/2007/02/24/4-decades-of-doing-it-wrong/#comment-57771 Michael, thank you for commenting. My intent here is not to attack or malign Dr. Branden, but rather, to offer commentary on how I've seen praise and reward systems being utilized, and some effects. Praising a child for being "smart", or being a "good swimmer", can set an internal standard based on a state of being... and thus, can be a vulnerability. Likewise, rewarding all members of every team with a trophy at the end of a volleyball season lessens the value of a trophy (or reward) earned for real effort. I too feel that positive self-esteem is critical to a happy, successful self. Whether the author paraphrased too heavily or not, I'd have to agree that there's support for the way it was said in the article. (<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.upmc.com/HealthManagement/ManagingYourHealth/PersonalHealth/Children/?chunkiid=14266" rel="nofollow">An example here</a>) Also -- self-assessment (or realistic self-appraisal), alas, isn't a forte of young children. Michael, thank you for commenting.

My intent here is not to attack or malign Dr. Branden, but rather, to offer commentary on how I’ve seen praise and reward systems being utilized, and some effects. Praising a child for being “smart”, or being a “good swimmer”, can set an internal standard based on a state of being… and thus, can be a vulnerability. Likewise, rewarding all members of every team with a trophy at the end of a volleyball season lessens the value of a trophy (or reward) earned for real effort.

I too feel that positive self-esteem is critical to a happy, successful self. Whether the author paraphrased too heavily or not, I’d have to agree that there’s support for the way it was said in the article. (An example here)

Also — self-assessment (or realistic self-appraisal), alas, isn’t a forte of young children.

]]> by: michael http://www.polimom.com/2007/02/24/4-decades-of-doing-it-wrong/#comment-57766 Sun, 25 Feb 2007 01:54:44 +0000 http://www.polimom.com/2007/02/24/4-decades-of-doing-it-wrong/#comment-57766 > Nathaniel Branden opined that self-esteem was the single most important facet of a person i know n.b. slightly on a personal level and his work very well, and that statement is nowhere to be found in his writing. he makes very, very clear that what is paramount is basing everything you do on reality - including a realistic self-appraisal. his books are all about bringing one's self-assessment in line both with reality and with one's own potential. > Nathaniel Branden opined that self-esteem was the single most important facet of a person

i know n.b. slightly on a personal level and his work very well, and that statement is nowhere to be found in his writing. he makes very, very clear that what is paramount is basing everything you do on reality - including a realistic self-appraisal. his books are all about bringing one’s self-assessment in line both with reality and with one’s own potential.

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